In this episode, recorded almost exactly a year after the COVID-19 pandemic forced lockdowns across the U.S., we have a deep conversation with two Antiochians working on the front lines of mental health to discuss the ways the field of therapy is evolving.
In this episode, recorded almost exactly a year after the COVID-19 pandemic forced lockdowns across the U.S., we have a deep conversation with two Antiochians working on the front lines of mental health to discuss the ways the field of therapy is evolving.
Dr. Doug Wear is the Director of Antioch’s Community Counseling and Psychology Clinic in Seattle. The clinic was fast in adapting to the circumstances of the pandemic and has been offering free counseling to frontline health workers this whole year.
Lane Janger is a current student in AULA’s Master of Arts in Clinical Psychology program where he has spearheaded the development of Antioch Community Therapy Services (ACTS), a clinic that offers free tele-counselling to Californians affected by the pandemic.
Doug and Lane share the difficulties they’ve faced trying to meet their communities’ counselling needs as well as their insights into how the field has already changed with the rise of teletherapy—and how more change is inevitable.
Looking to connect with a therapist in the state of Washington? Learn more about Antioch University Seattle’s Community Counseling and Psychology Clinic here.
Looking to connect with a therapist in the state of California? Learn more about Antioch University Los Angeles’s Antioch Community Therapy Services (ACTS) here.
Read our Common Thread article about ACTS here.
Recorded March 8, 2021 via Riverside.fm. Released March 17, 2021.
The Seed Field Podcast is produced by Antioch University, co-hosted by Jasper Nighthawk and Simon Javan Okelo, and edited by Lauren Instenes. Guidance for this episode came from Melissa Batalin, Karen Hamilton, and Melinda Garland.
For information about this and future episodes, visit:
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[00:00:07] Simon Javan Okelo: Thank you for being here with us today. You are listening to The Seed Field Podcast presented to you by Antioch University.
With every episode of The Seed Field, we celebrate and share stories of those who embody the spirit of our founder, Horace Mann, as they win victories for humanity. My name is Simon Javan Okelo, and I'm supported here by my co-host, Jasper Nighthawk. Jasper, I would love for you to share with us more about today's show.
[00:00:43] Jasper Nighthawk: Thank you, Simon. I'm so happy to be here with you again. This week I took on hosting duties for the show and I got to talk with two Antiochians who are running therapy centers, one in Seattle and one here in Los Angeles, where I am. It was a really interesting conversation. We got to talk about the rise of tele-counseling and how literally every therapist has been forced to adapt to this world where you don't see patients in person.
We also talked about how the global pandemic has led to a lot of stress in the profession, but at the same time opportunities for growth. We also talked about how each of them has stepped up and faced these challenges head-on in their personal lives and especially in their career.
[00:01:30] Simon: Wow, that sounds great. I am ready to pay attention.
[00:01:43] Jasper: Today on The Seed Field Podcast, we have Doug Wear. Doug is a licensed psychologist with a PhD from the University of Wyoming. He lives in Seattle where we're lucky to have him as the Director of the Antioch University Seattle Community Counseling and Psychology Clinic, which for years has provided free and reduced-cost counseling in the Seattle area.
Since COVID started, this clinic has been offering tele-counseling that's available to the whole state of Washington. Welcome to The Seed Field, Doug.
[00:02:16] Doug: Thanks, Jasper. Glad to be here.
[00:02:18] Jasper: We're really glad to have you. We have a second guest today as well. He's joining us from Los Angeles. This is Lane Janger. Lane is a student who is about to graduate from the Master of Arts in Clinical Psychology program at Antioch University Los Angeles. He's also heavily involved in another free therapy program. This one is called Antioch Community Therapy Services, and it started just under a year ago.
It offers free tele-counseling to people impacted by the virus, including first responders, families of those afflicted, people struggling with economic hardship and others who are homebound and suffering. This program is directed by Susan Schuster Bacon, but the original idea for it came from Lane and he's been heavily involved in running it ever since. We're super happy to have you on The Seed Field today, Lane.
[00:03:09] Lane: Thanks, I appreciate it.
[00:03:11] Jasper: I want to start off by asking both of you, just to stop and reflect a little bit on how the last year has gone. It's been a year since - a year of great disruption. The COVID pandemic really started disrupting our lives almost a year to the day since we are recording this. A therapist who I know recently told me that for him, it's been a dog year, seven years condensed into one. I guess I'll start with you, Doug, how are you and your colleagues doing under the emotional toll of so much need during this pandemic?
[00:03:46] Doug: Well, I think like for everybody, it's tough. I like the dog year metaphor, which I haven't heard that one before. One thing we all, I think, are experiencing is a little bit of trauma. It's the kind of trauma that is the long-lasting kind and affects us in an ongoing way. That impacts in the world of learning how we learn, how we retain things, how we can participate, and makes going to school different and it also makes teaching different. So we're struggling there.
Then, of course, there's a lot of emotional components to this too, as there is any trauma. We carry all this stuff underneath all the normal things we deal with. What's different about this is for a year to the day almost, we're experiencing this ongoing trauma that really affects our cognitive and emotional functioning and that underlies all of our other stresses and things we always have to deal with. The seven times multiplier of the dog year may be very apropos here and it makes it tough.
[00:05:08] Jasper: Yes. Well, it seems like you're holding up nonetheless. Lane, would you tell me a little bit about how your fellow students and also your fellow therapist's folks offering therapy in the Antioch Community Therapy Services program are doing in this last year?
[00:05:25] Lane: I have to say, I know it's a dog year and there's so much suffering, including, some of the therapists struggle in the pandemics just there's anxiety, difficulty focusing. I think people in our program are also excited, because we got this program started. It just feels like a real, for the trainees and I think the supervisors – everybody in the program, it feels like a real honor to be able to help all these people who are really struggling and everybody that comes to ACTS, comes cost-free.
We never ask for insurance. We never ask for money. They call one day and they're seeing a therapist the next day. I would say it's been exciting that the trainees are working with people, and really making a difference.
[00:06:26] Jasper: It seems like an exciting time to be a therapist too because there is so much need out there in the world. I was hoping if you would tell me the concept behind Antioch Community Therapy Services, which I can stop saying I know that’s a mouthful, so ACTS.
[00:06:41] Lane: ACTS, yes. Basically, at the beginning of the pandemic, I had sent two of my mentors, Joy Turek and Theo Burnes, the retired chair of our program, and the director of clinical training at our school, an email with the subject line, "Is it possible?" The question I asked is, "Is it unrealistic to think that we could create a volunteer force of students and supervisors to offer cost-free therapy services?" Everybody was in transition because of the pandemic and there were all these students who were supposed to be working at sites and not able to work.
[00:07:26] Jasper: Is that a requirement for graduating with this degree?
[00:07:30] Lane: Yes, we have to have, for MFTs, marriage family therapist, we have to have a minimum of 150 hours and your personal LPCC license, you have to have 280 face to face hours.
[00:07:48] Jasper: So opportunities to get those hours of training as a therapist, were being curtailed because you couldn't do in-person therapy at all these different places around LA.
[00:07:59] Lane: Exactly and there were more people who were having real anxiety and needing therapy services, and less services being offered. Some of our students were losing — Like I was told I had already been accepted to a site, but I was told I might not get any face-to-face hours. That could impact whether I was even able to graduate.
[00:08:24] Jasper: That seems like the perfect setup for a situation where you need to write an email with an all-caps headline, "Is it possible?"
[00:08:33] Lane: Is it possible? Yeah. Both Theo and Joy, who are great supporters of this project, and really helped give us the roadmap to make it happen, both of them were like, 'It's possible but we're really busy because of the transition to virtual classroom, but if you want to try to head it up, please do," and it was a little scary, but we move forward.
I got together a group like Susan Schuster Bacon was our first - she was going to volunteer to be our clinical director and a supervisor. There was a couple of other people that came on as well in that capacity and we had students willing to volunteer to help get it going.
[00:09:18] Jasper: That's so great. Can you give me a sense on just the raw numbers, how big is the program now and how many people does it serve?
[00:09:26] Lane: Well, it's way bigger than we expected. Currently, we have 60 therapists, eight are about to graduate but we've accepted 35 more for the next quarter so we could have up to about 80 therapists. I believe we'll be seeing somewhere between 400 and 500 clients in the next month.
[00:09:46] Jasper: That's amazing. That's such good work. Thank you for setting the gears in motion that led to this.
[00:09:51] Lane: Yes, it's a real testament to Antioch. Like Mark Hower, our provost, Stephen Southern who's our current department chair, and Joy Turek the former department chair. They really got behind this. So we always heard talk about being an Antiochian but this proved that being Antiochian exists at least in my mind because I hadn't seen the evidence yet. We've had such amazing support from everyone at Antioch so it's been really special.
[00:10:26] Jasper: That's so special. I wanted to bring you back in, Doug, because I know that you have been meeting a great deal of need in not just Seattle but the whole Washington state. I was hoping that you could tell us a little bit about how the community counseling and psychology clinic in Antioch Seattle, how it looked before the pandemic hit?
[00:10:47] Doug: We've been around for 15 years but we've always been in person and that's been the training model too. The position has been that it's best to learn how to do therapy live and in-person. There's a lot of variables there that you don't otherwise see when you're online. The non-verbals, the body position, sometimes body odors for that matter. It's important on a therapist's learning to have all that input. What happens when you switch to a telehealth model is you lose most of those inputs and you're stuck with a screen and very little else. The training model has always been, “well learn that at another time when you're on internship or when you're in your jobs not during your training.”
Again you asked about the clinics, we've been around since then and we trained the counseling students, the couple and family students, art therapy, drama therapy and we also trained psychologists. At any one point, we have probably 100 therapists in a year to go through, 40 or 50, at any one time, and then there's hundreds of clients that they see.
Here, we had to make some decisions and we closed down when everybody else did in this month, last year, and in less than eight weeks, we converted everything and reopened with telehealth. First, we had people who were trained in in-person therapy doing telehealth. Even that was a big leap because on top of learning to go to class in Zoom and struggling with all the trauma we're all struggling with, the students had to learn about telehealth and the change in the ethical rules and what that meant, and how to work in that modality. That was a big shift, as was the whole decision to work with them.
What we're facing now is students who have never done in-person live therapy at all, because we've started new cohorts, and they're seeing and learning to do therapy purely online, which has really been a big change.
[00:13:25] Jasper: Yes, there's going to be a great need for education for them when therapy in-person resumes.
[00:13:30] Lane: Can I just throw in? One interesting part and I've mostly only seen people via teletherapy speaking from a student's perspective, but the one cool thing is, I'm also in people's homes. I do feel super connected to all my clients and sometimes I don't even remember that I haven't met them in person, but I am in their home and I get to see their living environment. Sometimes I'm seeing them in their car or in their closet or in their bathroom because they need privacy. There are some interesting perspectives to be had just from working with somebody in that teletherapy environment also, I think.
[00:14:15] Doug: It can be good and bad.
[00:14:16] Jasper: Yes. Therapy is always such an intimate undertaking for two humans to share, and then to be already in someone's home, I like that you frame that as a feature, a benefit of work during the pandemic, but I wonder what have been— Lane, maybe you could tell us, what have been some of the biggest challenges of being a therapist during this pandemic?
[00:14:42] Lane: For the people who are in crisis, it's a little scary. I had a client who was in - not in Los Angeles, up north, in crisis last week. The client was dysregulated and I knew he needed services. I was the first therapist he had ever seen but he needed services beyond what I could provide, a higher level of care. I had to act as a social worker, and I helped him sign up for Medi-Cal and work with the crisis center to get a social worker, so someone could take over and get him medication and psychiatric care. That was really hard, because I'm in Los Angeles, trying to figure out how to help this person who is in crisis.
[00:15:35] Jasper: That makes a lot of sense that it's not only are you navigating these difficult situations where you have to be creative and empathetic, but also really leading with solutions. At the same time, you may be helping someone at the other end of the state.
[00:15:54] Lane: I will say one thing that we've definitely learned at ACTS, within school, we learn that people, if they don't pay for their therapy, they don't value it, and they don't show up. We definitely learned that that is not true. We have people showing up. Of course, we have some no shows and people that flake, but we have people showing up that are so appreciative of the services and sometimes showing up twice a week. We proved that a myth, I'd say, through our work.
[00:16:28] Jasper: That's a good myth to dispel.
[00:16:30] Lane: Yes, for sure.
[00:16:32] Jasper: Doug, I was hoping you could tell us some of the challenges that you've seen your students working at your practicum site facing?
[00:16:40] Doug: Well, I think it's probably very similar. I talked earlier about all the changes that the pandemic has brought, and how that's affected learning, and motivation and emotional health, mood understanding. Everybody comes to this at a very difficult time to learn something new. We're asking them to learn now in a matter of hours, something about doing telehealth when they've never done it before and they're already burdened by converting all their regular classes to Zoom and the pressure that the pandemic has put on all of us.
I think it was really important to be supportive of each other as we went through that. Yet, everybody had to understand that the fundamentals of doing responsible clinical practice don't change. It's still the same. We were forced to adopt it, so to speak, and that there was no other choice. We're still responsible, through legal requirements and ethical codes to maintain the same quality of care as in-person.
In addition to that, we're all supposed to be competent in our professional practice, and we're not allowed ethically to practice outside our training. Competence in behavioral health in general is not the same as competence and telebehavioral health. That was the learning curve everybody had to climb, including some of our faculty and ourselves in the clinic.
[00:18:21] Jasper: Doug, I know that one of your research interests is continuing education in psychology and certain psychologists and therapists have to get these continuing education credits. I'm curious how you see the role of continuing education in getting therapists to become proficient at delivering therapy over the telephone or one of these video therapy interfaces or Zoom, or however people are doing it.
[00:18:52] Doug: Sure. Well, continuing education is an ongoing process of formal learning relevant to your practice or education and to enable you to keep pace with the science and the interventions and to allow us to increase our competence. What a perfect place for continuing education as this presents, all of a sudden.
In fact, this state, Washington state requires now that you have at least the minimal certification in doing telehealth beyond all your other training. We thought we needed to do something much more substantial than the state has just in January required back when we converted to this. That's the model we used. We had people do some online training, and then we had some live training that we did a couple of times reviewing all the things that were important, as well as how to use our online platforms and how we were doing it in the clinic.
[00:20:05] Lane: I just want to add to that. It's like this training is so important, even if the pandemic didn't happen because we've got the younger generations who are so used to communicating virtually. I think sometimes they prefer it and are more likely to show up at therapy if they get to do it virtually. I think the training becomes extra important.
[00:20:31] Doug: I think that's right. I think we were actually having conversations, the provost, Ben Pryor, and I about working, moving into telehealth and then this just pushed this right in there. I agree with Lane. We certainly will never go back from this. We will reopen in person, the programs will decide if they want to have people learn to do therapy in person before they go on a telehealth training alone but we will always now be an in-person service and a telehealth service.
[00:21:11] Jasper: That's so interesting you guys, the telehealth question. I'm so interested in the way that it's going to change the field in a positive way, by hopefully making it more accessible to more people and more flexible so that it can fit with people's lives.
That said, I do have another concern which is maybe on a broader scale than even COVID which is that many news articles and studies that I've run into say that psychology is headed towards this crisis simply because so many of the professionals working in your field are already past their retirement age and even more are nearing that. Here in Los Angeles, finding a therapist who will take your insurance sometimes seems harder than finding your soulmate. At least it seemed that way to me during this crisis.
I was wondering maybe, Doug, you could speak to this first, if you see this as a looming crisis or is it one that we're already in? I know in California, it seems like there are more people who need therapy than there are therapists.
[00:22:15] Doug: Are you asking me that first because I'm about to retire too.
[00:22:18] Jasper: [laughs]
[00:22:20] Doug: Here's my thoughts. First of all, some of us are aging out but, I think, the numbers also show the people going into the field are way larger than the people aging out. It's an interesting observation you're making, Jasper, and I should probably read up on this. I think, you hit on the real crisis that we are in and have been in for some years. It's not about age, it's not about having the trained therapist. It's about access to care and about availability and this crazy system of insurance panels, of private fees and other impediments make getting care impossible sometimes.
Especially for those who don't have the resources to pay for it via their insurance or out of pocket, there are so many needs that are going unmet in the system at all kinds of levels, from counseling on to more serious inpatient things because the budgets and the funding for this just isn't there. I'm persuaded we could do so much better if we supported it. Of course, right now we're in a worse mental health crisis than ever with the pandemic behind us.
[00:23:51] Jasper: Well, I'm heartened to hear that there are more people going into the profession than coming out at it but that seems a somewhat intractable problem, at least, for therapists and psychologists to answer on their own. It seems like it would require a federal intervention on the level of passing a piece of legislation along the lines of Obamacare, which did guarantee people's right to see mental health professionals under their insurance.
[00:24:18] Doug: Federal, state, everybody has to get in. It's interesting you mentioned Obamacare, Jasper. When Obamacare started, people that didn't have funding, had funding for mental health care because one of the things it did is it put mental health care on par with physical health care for everyone. Prior to that, there were some efforts in that realm, but it used to be insurance companies could insure you for your physical health, f you broke a leg or had the flu, the doctor would see you and you would get 80% paid or you could break your leg 10 times and it wouldn't matter, but in mental health care, you might only get two sessions or five sessions and it would only pay at 50% and you had to be in the panel.
Now the rules are all the same. If you do it for physical health care, you do the same for mental health care. People are starting to realize you can't chop us up into pieces like that and cover one part of us one way and the other part of us the other way.
[00:25:30] Lane: I would say also, it's just one of the reasons I'm so proud of Antioch. We are offering cost-free therapy services. You don't need any insurance to come to get services with us and you can stay with us as long as you want. I think if other schools followed suit, there would be so many more opportunities that it would really level the playing field in terms of people being able to get mental health services.
[00:25:58] Doug: Even there, again, the question is who pays for that? We have a sliding fee scale and have always done that, but we lowered it for the pandemic and it starts at $0. We're doing free work too. In particular, we've reached out to the frontline workers who we're offering free services too regardless of income, no sliding scale there.
Of course, insurance companies don't want anything to do with students in the first place. If they don't have a degree or they don't have a license and they don't ever get in the panel that Jasper is looking in to find somebody to help. They're not allowed in.
[00:26:45] Simon: Hi, this is Simon speaking. I don't know about you, but I'm having a great time listening to this episode. Before it's over, I would love to let you know that The Seed Field Podcast is produced by Antioch University. Let's make the world better together. Complete your bachelor's and your master's or study for a doctorate degree with us here at Antioch University and join a community with 160-year long commitment to social justice. Win one for humanity, learn more at antioch.edu.
[00:27:33] Jasper: Well, I'd like to change subject. I wanted to ask you, Lane, I know that you like many Antioch students, and this is part of what makes Antioch special, are returning to school as an adult. You've had other careers and a lot of life experience before beginning your studies here. I was hoping you could share a little bit of your background, and what made you want to become a therapist and decide to study here at Antioch.
[00:28:00] Lane: First of all, you're very kind about just calling me an adult. We could say I'm an aging adult. I'm 54 years old, but there are a lot of people. I'm one of the older students, but I'm not the oldest. There's people that are grandparents coming in and just getting started in their therapy careers. It's exciting. For me, I had learning disabilities as a kid and I never imagined that I would be coming back to school at this age.
Actually, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a child adolescent psychologist. I was like a gay kid. I wanted to help other people that had learning disabilities or troubles coming out, except I never felt that I can get into a school because of my learning disabilities. Being able to come back to school and get disability services because of learning disabilities and to actually be able to have a leadership role at my school it seems unimaginable. I really appreciate that Antioch - I didn't have to take a test to get into Antioch. I came based on life experience and a passion for helping people and Antioch took me.
[00:29:28] Jasper: That's beautiful, that desire. Are you still training to become a child and adolescent psychologist?
[00:29:34] Lane: First of all, I raised two kids who are twenty years old. I love working with kids. I was theater dad at my daughter's school and soccer mom, played a lot of roles. I love working with kids. I was a camp counselor all through college, but I'm also a recovering alcoholic and drug addict. I am working in treatment as well. I'm all over the place, but I feel like I have a life experience that allows me to shift in a bunch of different directions.
[00:30:09] Jasper: Do you think that you would have taken such a leadership role in helping come up with the idea for it and then helping to set up this clinic if you were in your early 20s?
[00:30:21] Lane: I don't know. I think it was actually more my experience in recovery. When I first got that letter back that said, "We don't have time, but you're welcome to try to make this happen," I don't know if I would have gone for it twenty years ago. I just remained persistent. I believed in the idea, and we kept moving it forward. I don't know whether that's who I was in recovery or my age but I think we had an environment that allowed us to be that person who could move a project forward like this.
[00:31:05] Jasper: Well, as we're wrapping up, I want to ask you both a question, but I think I'll start with you, Doug. I wanted to ask what activities or practices you've picked up or added to your life during this pandemic year. What that might be, and whether you're planning on carrying it forward as hopefully, knock on wood, we start to come out?
[00:31:27] Doug: Well, that's an interesting question, Jasper, because it'd be much easier to answer what activities have I subtracted from my life and that's a different way to put it. Let me say a couple of things.
One, I think I've tried to hunker down on some core things which I talk about this with clients, too, before we get into all these mental health issues and complicated diagnoses. Are you doing some of the basic things in life that keep you mentally healthy and otherwise? And they're not all mental health things they're eating well, getting enough rest, getting some kind of exercise and having some social relationships with people in your life. Those things have been proven over and over again, to be so critical.
I guess the other thing, in terms your question, besides like, remember the basics is to cut myself or urge other people to do the same, some slack in this era, that you don't have to do everything right. There's a lot of pressure and things that are impairing us from doing things as quickly or as well as we may have been able to before. You have to be a little bit gentle with yourself. That's another thing I think is okay, to carry into the future.
Then finally, I don't know about carrying this, but I'll ponder it. One thing that this allows - people say that we're in a war with the pandemic - and if you think of that, it's a time that we can step up and be our best selves or be a hero somewhere.
I think that's an interesting thing to look at even going forward because a lot of times people feel burdened and troubled by this and want to give up, but it's like, “hey, if your family is in trouble, if your friends are in trouble, this is the time to really live what you believe and what is it that you can offer people and how can you help them during this era,” instead of folding your cards and saying that, "I'm out."
[00:33:50] Jasper: I love that. I think that this disaster and responding to it does present opportunities for heroism or just for stepping up that may be harder to see in more normal times.
[00:34:05] Doug: It certainly gives you a different perspective on almost everything.
[00:34:09] Jasper: Yes, it sure does. I want to turn the question to you too, Lane. Is there anything that you've picked up or some way that your life has changed that you want to carry forward into your next years and the rest of your life?
[00:34:25] Lane: Well, first of all, I do think as a student and as a learner, this has been a great time for learning because there's not much else to do. It's been a great time for helping people and for social justice because we have time to put our energy towards that, especially in Los Angeles where we have all this extra time because we're not driving everywhere.
I would say, like Doug, I'm constantly reminding my clients how important exercise and sleep hygiene and mindfulness, and doing activities that improve your well-being. When I'm reminding my clients, I'm also reminding myself. I've developed better morning exercise routines and a better mindfulness routine and I've been working on sleep hygiene. I do think having this pandemic has helped put some things in perspective for me and I'm helping my clients find that perspective as well.
[00:35:31] Jasper: That's beautiful. For you, you're passing through the pandemic when it started, you're not a licensed therapist and you're going to graduate in the next couple of months. Is that right?
[00:35:43] Lane: My final day of classes is this coming Wednesday. I'm almost there.
[00:35:50] Jasper: When you emerge from the pandemic, it will be as a licensed therapist.
[00:35:54] Lane: Yes, well I'll be an associate therapist. I still have about 1700 hours that I have to earn as an associate therapist.
[00:36:03] Jasper: I guess that will take a minute.
[00:36:05] Doug: Well, there you go Jasper. As I retire in a couple of months, Lane is coming in to replace me. See, there's no loss there. There's no loss.
[00:36:18] Lane: You're irreplaceable, Doug.
[00:36:20] Jasper: Thank you both so much for being on The Seed Field. It's been a pleasure getting to talk with you.
[00:36:25] Lane: Appreciate it. Thanks, Jasper.
[00:36:27] Doug: Thanks for having us. This is great.
[00:36:29] Lane: Nice meeting you, Doug, virtually.
[00:36:30] Doug: You too, Lane. I want to talk to you after this.
[00:36:32] Lane: I'd love to.
[00:36:43] Simon: You can find links to both of these counseling centers, websites in our show notes. If you live in Washington or California and you or someone you know would benefit from counseling, please reach out through their websites. Mental health is important and these centers exist to provide help. You can also find our show notes along with transcripts, links, and prior episodes by visiting theseedfield.org. The Seed Field Podcast is produced by Antioch University.
Our editor is Lauren Instenes. Guidance for this episode came from Melissa Batalin, Karen Hamilton and Melinda Garland.
[00:37:37] Jasper: Thank you for spending your time with us today. That's it for this episode, we hope to see you next time, and don't forget to plant a seed, sow a cause and win a victory for humanity. From Antioch university, this has been The Seed Field Podcast.